Caregiver Chat

Caregiving is a journey that touches many of our lives in profound and often unexpected ways. It is a role that demands resilience, compassion, and adaptability. 

In this episode, I have the pleasure of speaking with Gary Marzolf, whose lifelong experience with caregiving began at a very young age and has evolved through decades of personal challenges and triumphs. Gary’s story offers wisdom, inspiration, and insight into navigating the delicate balance between caring for others and taking care of oneself.

Links relevant to this episode: 

• Reiki: Hands That Heal by Joyce Morris
• Reiki for Emotional Healing by Tanmaya Honervogt
• Affirmations for Living Beyond Cancer by Bernie Siegel

General Links:

• Disclaimers: https://cancersurvivormd.org/disclaimers/
• Brad Buchanan: https://linktr.ee/bradthechimera
• G [Josie] van Londen: https://linktr.ee/cancersurvivormd
• CancerBridges: https://cancerbridges.org/

Chapters

• 0:00 Early Childhood Experiences with Caregiving
• 2:43 Caregiving Through Life Events
• 6:17 Caregiving: Recognizing Strengths and Limits
• 12:03 The Impact of Teachers and Mentors
• 15:25 Self-Care and Resilience in Caregiving
• 17:12 Finding Love and Navigating New Challenges
• 22:27 The Emotional Toll of Caregiving
• 29:16 Self-Care Examples
• 34:29 Confronting Death and Legacy
• 39:14 Caregiving as a New Normal

Transcript

G van Londen: Good morning, gary 

Gary Marzolf: Good morning, dr. Josie 

G van Londen: I'm very excited to have you on today. today we will be discussing the topic of caregiving. And Gary has a very interesting story to share, with his lifelong experience related to caregiving that started very young. I feel that many of you, can, hopefully find his story meaningful and inspiring.

Gary Marzolf: without further ado, Gary, I'll hand it to you, to tell a little bit about yourself. As I was thinking about this this morning, I realized that my caregiving didn't begin most recently with my husband who had esophageal cancer, but rather way back when I was about seven years old and my mother was extremely sick her health was not good for a number of years.

Gary Marzolf: And so the, the, mode in the family was kind of everybody taking care of her. my dad and my. older brother a little bit, and I was the middle child, and my two younger brothers were quite young. So, it came to me naturally, I guess, just helping out. It started out as that.

Gary Marzolf: But there was also a lot of worrying. I remember worrying about her. whether she was gonna survive, first of all, and then, every time she got sick, I was worried again. That's a lot for a seven year old. So, I was thinking, too, caregiving can be a blessing, especially for those who are being cared for, but it can also be a curse, if, you don't have some balance in it, and I didn't learn that balance until much later.

Gary Marzolf: and then, the next big part of my caregiving was with my ex wife, who had a terrible motorcycle accident when she was on vacation in California I was 19 and she was 22. she came back to Pittsburgh and required a lot of care, not so much physical.

Gary Marzolf: But she had some brain injury, so her memory was not so good and it took a number of months for her to even come back to anything that she had been before the accident. So I helped a lot with that just by being there and, sometimes she thought she was in places that she really wasn't, and just to clarify things that really happened, not what she thought happened, and in six months, she gained back pretty much everything that she was going to gain.

Gary Marzolf: So that was back in 1971, then the real caregiving, started when, we had two children. This was back in 1997. Jan was diagnosed with, adenocarcinoma. of the lung she had been a smoker and, um, and she hadn't quit smoking until she was diagnosed.

Gary Marzolf: That was the end of the smoking. she had a resectioning of the lung. the upper lobe removed with taxol on a weekly basis along with radiation. 

Gary Marzolf: So then, by the end of August, she went back to work. it was hard but during that time she required a lot of help and, I mean, just getting around and. What she really needed was someone to spur her on to rehabilitate herself. They didn't have all these rehabilitation programs back then, like, cardiac rehab or pulmonary rehab.

Gary Marzolf: Jan was very resistant to doing any kind of physical stuff. I had a friend who did cardiac rehab she said she would be glad to set up a program for Jan because it would be very similar. for pulmonary and, she didn't want any parts of that. her recovery was very slow, 

Gary Marzolf: I got into the wellness stuff a little bit.

Gary Marzolf: I had read about Bernie Siegel. I read his book. I made some tapes for her, uh, some meditation tapes. And she did use some of that stuff. And during her chemotherapy, I had gotten her a tape that came out, they were just affirmations and music and you watched it every day. It was very calming.

Gary Marzolf: Matter of fact, when my husband was diagnosed, I got the same tape for him and it was very old at that time, but it still kind of worked. It was very relaxing and Dave used it for a long time. that was one thing Jan did do. she used those affirmations and eventually She did pretty well.

Gary Marzolf: I was going to retire in 2008 in June from teaching high school, which I taught for 33 years, But then she was diagnosed with breast cancer right in the spot where she had had the radiation.

Gary Marzolf: right where the tattoo was is where the tumor developed, and it was adenocarcinoma. And she needed a lot of help at that point too. We were planning to split up at that time. I stayed another year till she got through all of her chemo. I can remember doing the drains and all that sort of stuff.

Gary Marzolf: So I was back to caregiving again when, when I didn't think I was going to be a caregiver again. And, uh, but that went fine, and she was very appreciative of, that caregiving.

G van Londen: I know there's more to your story, but I'm going to pause it for a second because I think there's a few things that you're illustrating here. One is, the observation that, behavior is driven by nature and nurture, meaning you're born with certain characteristics. but then, other behaviors can be learned by observing other people, or you might be forced into it because you don't have a choice.

G van Londen: it seems like you're describing a bit of all of that. I think you have a nurturing personality. And then on top of that, you had other people modeling it, and you were thrown into pretty prematurely at age seven, you were asked to take care of an adult, which is, and that made you probably, grow up earlier than you would have otherwise.

G van Londen: you didn't have as much opportunity to play and roam around as children are supposed to. I'll leave it at that and see what you have to say in, response, if anything. 

Gary Marzolf: I think that led me into teaching too. my role models really were very good teachers that I had in elementary school.

Gary Marzolf: and they were very nurturing too, you know, those women back in the day. so I got a lot of that from them too. And then I became a teacher myself. I always wanted to be a teacher. So that was, I think, part of it also. 

G van Londen: There was something else I was going to ask It's interesting how you find yourself in these situations.

G van Londen: I wonder what is chicken and what is egg? does this just happen to land in your lap? Do you, do you, attract it? Do you look for it? I'm guessing in the end, The answer is a combination of the two, because not everybody finds themselves in situations that you're in.

G van Londen: I think you also slide into that role very easily, I think. and so I wanted to ask you a little bit what you think about this chicken and egg phenomenon, or is this something you never thought about before, which means maybe you need more time to reflect on this. 

Gary Marzolf: I didn't really think of it in those terms, it makes total sense. It does seem like it's kind of a combination, just given the family that I was born into, and things that developed in those years when I was small. it's very possible that I had a propensity for taking care of people, too.

Gary Marzolf: I think, sometimes when you're interested in people and you're a compassionate person, the very next step is if somebody needs something, you do it. even if you don't know how to, like I can remember those drains from the breast surgery.

Gary Marzolf: You know, I thought, wow, that seems so complicated and you do it once or twice and you knew exactly what you were doing I never really wanted to be a nurse or in the medical field at all, but I did those things with no problem. I remember the lung tubes, Jan had the lung tubes in the hospital and waiting for them to come out.

Gary Marzolf: we had this big machine that we would carry with us as we'd walk down the hall, trying to. be able to, you know, to walk and, function again and breathe again with this less lung capacity. Um, yeah, so none of those things scared me or anything, you know, it was just the process of getting better. what you had to do or learn for the person to improve. 

G van Londen: What I'm hearing is, some people's backpacks are fuller and some people encounter more bad luck or bad health, than others, which is a whole topic on its own.

G van Londen: But once you encounter that, you have a choice to either walk into the fire, and help the other person or run away from it. no judgment here for anybody who's listening. I'm just outlining the responses that are there versus I guess there's fight, flight and, some people might become paralyzed, others run away from it, you ran into it. It's a choice you make, whether you're aware of it or not, or whether you're, able to control it or not. Some traumatic responses you can't control. But, what I'm trying to do here is raise awareness for the fact that there's different reactions and, there's no judgment here, but just to be aware of it so that maybe moving forwards in the future, you can decide more consciously how to react. 

G van Londen:

Gary Marzolf: hmm. Yeah, I think that's true. I've seen that too. I had a close friend. His wife. had cancer and she didn't last very long after that. This was way back in the 70s. And so he raised the kids.

Gary Marzolf: Eventually he remarried and his wife was diagnosed with a terminal tumor and he just couldn't handle it. she went home to live with her mother and Her mother took care of her. a lot of people criticized him, but I totally get it. Like you were saying, he was paralyzed and he just couldn't do it again.

Gary Marzolf: You know, it had taken so much out of him. 

G van Londen: Yes. And I'm sure a lot of judgment will be passed.

G van Londen: there's always judgment, no matter which choice somebody makes. there's always somebody who passes judgment. Um, um, Whether it's positive or negative. the point is here not to pass judgment, but to raise awareness for these different choices so that you can make a conscious decision rather than be driven by unconscious factors that make you feel like you have no choice.

G van Londen: all we can do is our best 

G van Londen: another thing I observed before we move on to the next leg of your journey in terms of caregiving is your memory, the experiences you've had throughout your whole life, going back to age seven are so fresh.

G van Londen: It's like you're describing it like it happened yesterday, You describe it very vividly. You may not remember some of the factual details, but the emotions related to it. are still front and center, which is very interesting.

G van Londen: It made a big impression on you for good or for bad. It made a very big imprint on your formation, and your being. 

Gary Marzolf: One thing in particular that came to mind when my mother was in the hospital with kidney surgery. I had a second grade teacher who gave me the starring role in the Christmas play.

Gary Marzolf: I remember she wrote my mother the nicest note because she couldn't be there that's what I mean about these caring, compassionate teachers. this lady was Almost 60 at the time, so she was more like a grandmother figure almost, but I remember that like it was yesterday caring, compassionate, very strict teacher, you wouldn't expect it, but she had that that inborn compassion for her students.

Gary Marzolf: And I think those teachers, they were my role models, you know, they were my mentors. for learning how to teach. I learned more from my teachers than I actually, learned from, education classes. 

G van Londen: But that point illustrates a few things. 

G van Londen: it takes a village to take care of each other, first of all, this teacher became sort of a surrogate. She knew intuitively that she had to, fill in given that your own parents were not able to do certain things due to health conditions.

G van Londen: that is. a treasure invaluable. the other thing that she did, I think.

G van Londen: Which was amazing is reach out to this parent who has the health condition and can't be there. And I'm sure feels very guilty about that, but to reach out and close that circle, not just to be there for the child, but to be there for the parent who is missing in action, I think that closing of the circle, is a gesture that, I very much appreciate as a parent who is often missing in action, 

Gary Marzolf: Yes. And I never saw it so much from that perspective, you know, because I was seeing it as the child, not as the parent who sees that circle being closed. That's a very interesting point. 

G van Londen: I think your teacher was a very special teacher. 

Gary Marzolf: Yeah, she really was. 

G van Londen: Yeah, and you remember her, she had a big role in your raising, 

G van Londen: she filled some of the gaps that, sadly your own parents at that time couldn't. that's why it takes a village. it's important to know that as parents, we can only do so much, we touch everybody in our village through the ripple effect, and we might have more influence that goes beyond our own children. Yeah. 

Gary Marzolf: as a result, of the caregiving and wellness things I tried with Jan I, studied Reiki. I did a lot of things, yoga. I did some, um, Phoenix rising yoga therapy, which was a type of, somatic psychotherapy, you might say.

Gary Marzolf: And I did it with my yoga mentor and, um, I did several sessions with her over the years. I think by 2001. I was pretty wiped out from the caregiving with my ex wife. I felt very depleted. And, I guess I really hadn't taken, good care of myself. One thing that was really good was, when Jan was diagnosed, I'd been sober for four years.

Gary Marzolf: So that was a real blessing. Had I still been drinking during that time, I don't even want to think of the cataclysm that would have been. that was good, but I needed a lot more work. she turned out to be a great therapist and counselor. between 2001 and 2005, I did a lot of work with her and it really helped.

Gary Marzolf: that's really when I came out, went to, a yoga center in Massachusetts that had, A workshop for, gay people, just to, for a weekend to be together. I was kind of a newbie even in the gay world. When I got there, it was funny. there were 12 of us.

Gary Marzolf: 10 lesbian women and two guys. And these women were so nurturing and so wonderful. And it was like the perfect place to be. it just happened. So that really helped me a lot. And then by 2009, I was living again on my own. And then 2011, I met Dave He grew up in the town that I had lived in for about 40 years, but he had been gone all that time he had spent most of his time in Pittsburgh.

Gary Marzolf: So, I met him through his, brother and sister in law. by 2011, when I met him, we did a lot of hiking and stuff. It was very, casual kind of relationship platonic almost. we got to be really good friends. one day he was working a lot.

Gary Marzolf: And so I wouldn't see him for weeks because he was doing all this overtime work. He said, I want to talk to you. And he said, I'm doing all this work. And that's really crazy because after 20 years, there's this man I've met that I would really like to spend more time with and, we went out for dinner.

Gary Marzolf: He came back with me and never left. He stayed that night and, we were together from there on in. That was around Memorial Day of 2011. and then eventually we had the opportunity to come back to Pittsburgh. that's what I always wanted to do. this was my hometown and I really wanted to come back. So we did, and we were extremely happy. they were just marvelous years. 

Gary Marzolf: And um, then we were in car accident.

Gary Marzolf: They discovered he had a blockage. He got a stent put in. It was on Plavix and aspirin and he had a stomach bleed in 2017. They went in and they stopped the bleeding. It was really serious. I didn't even realize how serious it was.

Gary Marzolf: the, GI doc, they called in the big guns, in the emergency room and they did this emergency endoscopy, were able to stop the bleed. later he wanted to go in and check things out. they discover adenocarcinoma I remember talking to the doctor and I said, where do we go from here?

Gary Marzolf: You know, are we talking chemo or because I knew someone who had it. It was years ago. And it wasn't a pretty picture. And he said, No, there's surgery. You know I thought Okay. You know, and I had known people when Jan had her lung resection in 97. and, the outcomes weren't so good back then.

Gary Marzolf: they were getting better, but a lot of people didn't survive. So I was really pretty worried. we just kept going one step at a time, we were given a surgeon We met with the surgeon and he was very upbeat, and we belong to this esophageal group , and he was marvelous, they met quarterly, we just happened to get right in before Dave's surgery, like a week before, and they explained everything from A to Z. What was going to happen during the surgery, what it was going to be like in the hospital everything.

Gary Marzolf: it was like clockwork when Dave actually had the surgery and it was about, I don't know, eight or nine hours. It was exactly as he described it. his recovery was pretty much everything that he described, but I knew I was in for the long haul because he was going to have a feeding tube and it was a lot more learning again, back into the caregiver group.

Gary Marzolf: And I really knew that going in that one thing you have to do is take care of yourself during all of this. So we got through the surgery, then we had to start chemo And Dave's so small, you know, and losing weight was such a major thing. so we tried to feed him anything he possibly could eat that would have calories and that he could, not fill up quickly and have dumping syndrome and all these things, but all of these things we were made aware of.

Gary Marzolf: These are all things that can happen. And if they happen, then this is what you could do. I still use so much of what I learned in that group. we probably had about six or seven sessions before COVID came and then we never had the group again after that, but it was so helpful.

Gary Marzolf: we got through it, and Dave kept the feeding tube a little longer than most. Just in case he couldn't get enough calories during the chemotherapy, we could always supplement with the feeding tube. And we did do that a little bit. But eventually, I mean, Dave's an engineer and he kept track of how many calories he had each day and made a chart.

Gary Marzolf: We took it to Dr and he said, this is looking pretty good. I think maybe we can pull the tube because he was going to be doing a dilation anyway. He said, I'll just do them both at the same time. Yeah. So still there's a lot of concern, you know, you're never not concerned, even though Dave's done extremely well.

Gary Marzolf: this is year seven since the surgery. He's very fortunate to, have gotten through the, esophageal cancer like he did. He had great doctors. gave us so much information, answered every question, gave him a, a very personalized, they saw the weight issue.

Gary Marzolf: there was intestinal issues. They handled all that stuff and his GI doc too. our medical support was fabulous all the way through we always felt like we could just send an email, this is going on, what should we do? and we still do that actually.

G van Londen: You're describing how beneficial you found it to be able to access the team, get education, because knowledge is power.

G van Londen: what you're not describing as much, and I think that's, understandable. I'm going to ask, but you don't have to answer. how you felt when you heard your husband's diagnosis and sort of this is your fourth, your fifth, journey in caregiving.

G van Londen: I can imagine that there's a host of emotions going through your head, like, not again. Do you remember, or was it sort of a blur and you numbed yourself out? Can you describe a little bit more of the emotional journey that you went on? 

Gary Marzolf: It was very scary because it started, well first off, Doctor

Gary Marzolf: called Dave and he said, we've discovered this adenocarcinoma. He said, there is a possibility that we could do a resectioning if it's not too deep. So that's what they did. But, every time something happened, it got a little bit worse, 

Gary Marzolf: when he did the resectioning, that's when he said to me, I don't know. this looks. so much different than it did when I just saw it several weeks ago. he said, I'm not sure. I'm afraid this may have gotten into the lymph channels.

Gary Marzolf: he was kind of preparing me, and that was shocking. I had lots of questions that he did answer, but he couldn't answer completely because he didn't have the pathology back. So he said, wait, but he gave me one of these as he left and I knew what that meant, I knew what we were headed toward and sure enough, everything moved so quickly, then we saw the surgeon and they had all these pre surgery tests, scans, PET scan, Everything was looking good, for that.

Gary Marzolf: So, after having the education, I really felt very positive about it. Like, yeah, Dave can really get through this. and Dave's attitude was, he said, well, I'm going to do everything I can because our relationship is so new, you know, we love each other so much and I want to do everything I can that can keep us together for as long as possible.

Gary Marzolf: So how do you turn away from that? You don't, you know, you don't even think about that. you're in 100%. And as scary as it was. it was just like walking through the steps because I felt like I'd been so prepared for them. plus I had experience, with Jan's lung resectioning and that kind of thing.

Gary Marzolf: Those are scary operations. So, I just kind of went with it. and Dave made progress from the very beginning, after the surgery. 

G van Londen: You went into fight mode again. 

Gary Marzolf: Pretty much 

G van Londen: it's interesting. There are different pathways I can take here. one of the things I'm going to touch on briefly is, traumatic, um, um, histories, like you've been through traumatic experiences with caregiving before.

G van Londen: So this was a traumatic trigger for you, the diagnosis of your husband, and you went into fight mode as opposed to flight or freeze mode. 

G van Londen: But maybe what I will do is ask you, because you're very good at it, is self care.

G van Londen: it's interesting how you went to work in a field of self care, which is probably driven by the fact that you wanted to help yourself, as well as you wanted to help others, learn how to take care of themselves. I find that fascinating, because Not everybody does that, but you do.

G van Londen: It's Sort of your survival instinct, on steroids, because you're not just helping yourself, you're helping others. That's your strength, I think. That you've learned to embrace that. 

Gary Marzolf: well, I would just say that I had a number of students, most of my students were older, when I say older, they were 40 and above. most of my yoga students and I had a number of women who were breast cancer, survivors and some of them actually during their treatment.

Gary Marzolf: I did devise some restorative yoga for breast cancer people. It was very helpful in their journey. So that was pleasing to me. I continued on with that when I was doing Reiki, for example, the way I came into that, I was at a seminar, Jan and I, my ex wife, at a Bernie Siegel seminar in Pennsylvania.

Gary Marzolf: I met a friend of mine there. who was getting Reiki. He had small cell lung cancer, and was getting these Reiki treatments I didn't know anything about it. he told me a little, and then I saw it at the massage school in Penn Hills.

Gary Marzolf: Somebody was offering two levels of it. So I went to do it and then I was using it on Jan because her white count never really came back. It was always like 2. 6 or something like that. So I would give her these Reiki treatments, just quick treatments every day. And it was hovering around four.

Gary Marzolf: And it stayed that way. it didn't dip into those really low numbers. So that was kind of interesting. I used it on Dave and a friend who had cancer. I would give her a Reiki treatment right before her chemotherapy treatment because the idea of the chemo is to kill cells.

Gary Marzolf: by giving energy, You don't want that to do anything to the chemo. You want the kill to be as big as you can get it. So then before the next treatment, you could give a good Reiki treatment and they felt very relaxed I did it with Dave too, and it was very helpful.

Gary Marzolf: for when he received chemo then, but I never did it and I had read, there was a woman in California that wrote a lot about chemotherapy and Reiki she said she never gave it when the chemo was supposed to be doing its cell kill some people go way beyond with this Reiki stuff, they think they can cure people, 

Gary Marzolf: so you really have to be careful with that kind of stuff. But interestingly enough, a lot of it came out of Holland. There is a great Reiki practitioner, teacher in Holland. And, there's quite a group of practitioners there. 

G van Londen: For the listeners, I put the links to some of the, sources we described in the description. I'm from the Netherlands, so that's why Gary is making this link to the Netherlands, which I'm excited to read about. as we always discuss Western medicine, is not to be replaced by any alternative methods.

G van Londen: it's my strong belief that they can be used in conjunction in a transparent manner. Discuss with your, cancer doctors to make sure that you're not causing any negative interactions. They're not meant to replace Western medicine. 

G van Londen: Anyway, Gary, I wanted to ask you, because you're very good at self care, and I mean that.

G van Londen: I truly think you're an example. Can you give me some other examples of what you do for self care? Because I know you have tons of, outlets and you choose and pivot depending on the day and the weather and your mood 

Gary Marzolf: The main one is walking, even when Dave.

Gary Marzolf: because of the chemo that he was getting, and it was wintertime, he couldn't be in the cold. So, it really was hard on him not to be able to walk. I went to Frick Park every day, and I took my cell phone, and he had his cell phone with him. I could be home in ten minutes if there was a problem. So, I said, you know, I'm on here.

Gary Marzolf: I remember taking videos of the stream in Frick Park, and I would send it to him since he couldn't go, but I did that daily. I didn't ever skip a day because I really needed to be out. Frick Park, was just wonderful. To be out in a little bit of nature. And that was from December to April.

Gary Marzolf: I do a short yoga practice every day, with some meditation some prayer some reading and a little bit of writing. it was journaling for a long time. Now it's kind of like. a sentence from the reading, that I want to remember that I think is important.

Gary Marzolf: But I still write a little bit every day. So the writing was also part of the, therapy. And also seeing a therapist. After Dave was totally finished with everything, I saw one of the therapists at Cancer Bridges. She was at Cancer Caring Center at the time. She's very helpful. And what surprised me was the things we talked about were just some issues that I had, like family issues, things with my children that I didn't think were linked at all to, this cancer experience, but it's kind of what came out.

Gary Marzolf: And so I saw about six times and it was so helpful. And then later on, Dave did too. I'm not quite sure what they discussed. I think more related to his survivorship, that kind of thing. but that was also very helpful. I didn't need a lot of. sessions with her. she is trained with working with people with, cancer and their families.

Gary Marzolf: That's her specialty.

G van Londen: it's interesting that you describe that in certain outlets or self help mechanisms that people used to use sometimes you have to re evaluate, if they're still working for you. and maybe you need to add new ones and replace the old ones.

G van Londen: Is it still giving you the same relief that you're hoping for? Because sometimes you outgrow. certain coping mechanisms or you, you minimize them. Like you were saying, you used to write a lot. Now just one sentence because you achieve the effect quicker.

G van Londen: it's sort of along the lines of work smarter, not harder 

Gary Marzolf: I realized after lots of years, all the meditation, I belong to a Buddhist meditation group, all of the yogic material that I read, it was great, but it wasn't my culture really, I was ignoring things that I grew up with, like my childhood religion I found a lot of comfort in those much later, just in the past, year and a half or so, like you said, you change if something isn't working, it wasn't that it wasn't working.

Gary Marzolf: It was that I was ignoring something that I thought was much more valuable that I hadn't realized was so valuable. But looking at it again, um, it brought me to a new place. But I think that is important to, to evaluate. You have to evaluate and re evaluate. Is this working for me right now? And one thing that still does kind of work, I still belong to the cancer caring group.

Gary Marzolf: every once in a while, when you're afraid, when scans are coming up, we all talk about that stuff in terms of the people that we care for, you know, not our scans, but being worried about their scans because they're worried about them too. So that group is a very good group.

Gary Marzolf: and I've belonged to that since 2017 and it's still going. 

G van Londen: thank you. you highlight the role of nature, which for everybody has a different, role, but I think in your case, it's, Very helpful, both at a public park and gardening too at your home.

G van Londen: the touch, the tactiles, your senses are being stimulated. some people believe certain hormones in nature help as well. which is an interesting concept 

G van Londen: another thing you highlighted is that all the other self care mechanisms led you to realize that maybe you needed to go back to your roots.

G van Londen: some things you did in your childhood that gave you comfort, can still give you comfort in a different way because you've grown over time He went back to your roots, which is interesting, to reflect on, whether it's art religion or whatever you used to do as a child, can still often give us comfort, As an adult 

G van Londen: looking at the time, Gary, I think I'm going to ask one more question about death. it seems to be one of your central themes in life people near and dear to you, have had pretty serious health conditions, throughout your life.

G van Londen: that has taken away your, ignorance is bliss perspective very early I wonder how that has affected your relationship with death. I don't know if that makes sense, this question. 

Gary Marzolf: Yeah, it makes a lot of sense. in a couple of years, my mother passed away, from, metastasized, intestinal cancer.

Gary Marzolf: my aunt, who I was very close to had pancreatic cancer and passed away. My dad passed away of a brain tumor. we had a very small a little bit crazy family, but nonetheless, it was the family and everybody was gone in a few years.

Gary Marzolf: which was pretty shocking, that was just unbelievable. then my ex wife, died, not young, but in her early 70s. death is, especially now being at this age, looking at it. it's not too terribly far off. 

Gary Marzolf: Dave and I bought our plot and have our tombstone already bought. I think it was a way of dealing with death, since it would seem to be around us so much. We grasp onto it a bit, maybe trying to have a little bit of control, but in the same breath being kind of afraid of it too, and not wanting it to come too soon.

Gary Marzolf: we're still not ready for it. I still worry about health conditions we're not quite ready yet to do that, but then we saw Dave's nephew at 55, died of a very odd type of cancer. and what that's like for his mother, who survives very sad, very hard.

Gary Marzolf: But it's such a part of life, you just can't escape it. like you say, Dr. Josie, there are people who don't ever have, they, they kind of just kind of go along until then it finally happens when they're very old, maybe to a spouse or something. And that's their first encounter. Um, that's not been the situation, with us.

Gary Marzolf: I mean, it hasn't been horrible, but we're certainly aware of death and kind of living. we try to live each day as a gift, and it really is. We've been around so many people that, haven't gotten as far as Dave's gotten, with his cancer.

G van Londen: I think you're illustrating, how you keep living until your last beat. You prepare for the worst, but you hope for the best, and that's really all you can do. keep going, keep living. 

Gary Marzolf: I remember, as far as the worry, I always come back to that . It was a

Gary Marzolf: a couple of years ago, at least, that you said, you know, when you're worried about something, don't try to push it all away. Give yourself a chance. You said like, open the window in your head. Yeah, I think that's what you said. And you know and and let it in and feel and then when you're done close it you can come back to It later, but you don't have to have it all the time.

Gary Marzolf: I've told that story to so many people especially at that cancer caring group. They said that makes really good sense I said I know but it's from dr. Josie So they all know you still even though you're not and even the The new, new therapist that's there talks about Dr.

Gary Marzolf: Van London and I don't think you ever met her, but it's from these stories. I say that all the time about survivorship, how important that that's another big piece of self care I mean, it's, it's everything. It's the underpinnings of surviving.

Gary Marzolf: we were so lucky to have that with you.

Gary Marzolf: Thank you. But I mean, really, it was kind of amazing, how that happened, and again, it was through this cancer caring group we found out about you and made the appointment. And it just kind of went from there, , it really helps a lot. 

G van Londen: I'm very happy to see that, momentum is picking up for survivorship care and Awareness for the caregiver is really increasing, in many ways from logistical, how can we help caregivers and survivors, but also from the ethical standpoint, what are the responsibilities and what are the rights?

G van Londen: how can we help each other? Um, which is something we delved into in our last podcast episode. for those listeners, please tune in to that. We discussed that with Brad Buchanan and Chris Gabard. I think this is a nice time to wrap it up. Gary, is there anything else you would like to share before we close?

Gary Marzolf: The only thing I would say is, with caregiving, along with the person you're taking care of, you do come to a new normal in your life. it may not look exactly as it did before, but it's new, it's normal, it's good, it is what it is today. But that's important to, I think, to keep that mindset a little bit that, it's not gonna all go back to exactly the way, and nothing's going back anywhere.

Gary Marzolf: I mean, time just keeps moving on. that's something I think is important for me to remember. 

G van Londen: Yeah, I like that philosophy and I thank you, Gary, for taking the time today to sit with me and talk this through. I'm sure many will find some comfort in your words and, thank you, Gary.